SUGARCREST: When is the first time you recall bringing in your own client and how did that happen?

Wickouski: My first client was a court appointment. I got the business because I had just been appointed to the trustee panel.

SUGARCREST: What is a trustee panel?

Wickouski: A group of lawyers that are appointed to be trustees in bankruptcy cases.

SUGARCREST: How do you get that appointment?

Wickouski: You have to apply to the US Trustees office to be apart of the panel. There are different criteria now than there were then. They usually limit it to a certain group of roughly ten to twenty lawyers in each jurisdiction.

SUGARCREST: Is that how most bankruptcy lawyers grow their business?

Wickouski: For senior associates and new partners, it’s a great way to make contacts, get good experience and begin building a certain level of business. However, because fees are limited and are often based on the recovery in a particular case, it’s not something people usually do for an extended period.

SUGARCREST: With the state of the economy and the recent surge in bankruptcies I imagine business is booming. But, how have you survived the downtimes?

Wickouski: There are three things I’ve done that have helped me survive the downtimes. First, I expanded the geographic scope of my practice to include not just Washington, DC but also Virginia, Maryland and New York. This way, if there’s not enough business to keep me busy in Washington, DC, I can tap these additional markets.

Second, I expanded the type of bankruptcy work I do. This allows me to focus on debtor work in a bad economy and represent purchasers, committees and creditors when things recover. Some people retool in a more dramatic way by taking on work that is outside their practice area. I don’t feel comfortable doing that because then I’m selling myself as an expert at something I don’t know. Any expansion I do is within my core area of expertise.

Third, I keep myself busy and working during a slow time so prospective clients are thinking about me when demand resumes. I also maintain visibility by continuing to network with members of the bankruptcy and general bar associations because other lawyers are a key source for referrals.

SUGARCREST: Do other attorneys refer you most of your new business?

Wickouski: Not 100% of it but certainly more than half of the business comes from other lawyers. Some of it is direct. But it usually comes from in-house lawyers.

SUGARCREST: How do you go about entering a new geographic area?

Wickouski: I don’t think there’s a formula. For me, it’s about keeping my eyes open for opportunities and contacts—people who know someone who’s looking for a bankruptcy lawyer. Sometimes you just have to be open, reach out and make the contacts without knowing where they’ll take you. You expand yourself geographically in much the same way you build your practice in your home city.

SUGARCREST: How do you build your practice?

Wickouski: I think it’s important to maintain your visibility in the community by being active in the bar association and regularly meeting other lawyers. It’s also important to be genuinely helpful with members of the press without expecting anything in return. Being a valuable and patient resource will increase the chances that they mention you in future articles.

It’s also important to work on other people’s cases inside your firm—even if you don’t get origination or work credit. The contacts you make, the relationships you build and the knowledge you gain will more than reward you for your efforts.

SUGARCREST: Where are the best places to meet other lawyers and business professionals that can refer business to you?

Wickouski: The Women’s Bar and the Network of Commercial Real Estate Women (C.R.E.W.) have been a good source of contacts for me. They are both welcoming organizations that present excellent networking opportunities for women.

SUGARCREST: Do you think business development is different for a woman?

Wickouski: Not really. I think the differences have more to do with a lawyer’s specialty and personal style—not whether they’re a man or a woman. Also, being successful at business development shouldn’t require that you follow a textbook approach or change who you are.

I think if you stick with the marketing activities you’re good at, the business will come. If you’re not a golfer, don’t play golf! You shouldn’t volunteer for a civic association just because you think it’s going to bring you business. Do it because you want to do it and the contacts and business will follow.

SUGARCREST: What business development techniques work best for you?

Wickouski: I really think it’s been my relationships with other lawyers. I have developed those relationships by networking on a regular basis and by working at a number of firms. Equally important, I’ve tried to be as gracious and helpful as possible with everyone I’ve encountered along the way.

Doing things from the heart and not expecting anything in return is the secret to building enduring relationships and a rich referral network. Now, many of my contacts that were colleagues and co-workers when we first met are in positions to hire me or influence those involved in selecting legal counsel.

SUGARCREST: Do you have a system or a way of keeping in contact with all of the folks you’ve met throughout the years?

Wickouski: I wish I did. It’s very hard. You meet hundreds of people and you lose touch with them. And sometimes, unfortunately, the occasion for you to contact them is when you think there’s a business opportunity. While this can be uncomfortable, you also have to remember that many of these sources of new business are other lawyers who will probably be calling on you for similar business development help at some point down the road.

SUGARCREST: Like you, many lawyers express discomfort with various aspects of the business development process. How do you overcome these feelings and get yourself comfortable?

Wickouski: Like so many other things, it’s all about your attitude. If you equate legal business development with all that is pejorative about sales, you will probably feel uncomfortable. Instead, I prefer to focus on what I bring to the table. I truly believe that I provide something that people really need, and it’s a question of whether they’re going to get it from me or from someone else. And I’m confident that they’re going to do at least as well with me and maybe better because I’m either going to offer better service or a better price.

The part of business development that’s uncomfortable for me is that there’s always a chance somebody will say no. Nobody likes rejection. But you have to realize that rejection is not personal. More often than not, it’s not about you not being good enough to do the job. Instead, decisions are often based on internal politics or the fact that there are pre-existing relationships with other firms.

In addition, I’ve found it helpful to see the process of seeking new business as an investment in myself and in my network. At first, I was surprised at how often an unsuccessful pursuit of new business would rebound to my benefit in some respect. But the more it happened, the more energized I became.

SUGARCREST: Can you give me an example of one of the unsuccessful attempts at business development that rebounded to your benefit?

Wickouski: There was an occasion when I worked very hard to help a lawyer in New York pitch a case (to get a creditors’ committee representation). She needed local counsel so I did all of the legwork and used my contacts to get us into the competition. Although we weren’t ultimately selected, several people involved in the decision making process later thought of me for cases in the same industry.

In addition, the lawyer I helped was very appreciative and we were able to solidify our relationship. Since then, a number of positive things have come from working together with her on that project. The lesson here is that you may not always see immediate results from the energy you put into business development. But, whether you realize it or not, by simply being involved in the process, you build relationships and expand your network for future business.

SUGARCREST: Especially in a time where people are concerned about billable hours, where do you find the time to market?

Wickouski: As a partner in a law firm, there is always the danger of being over-committed. You have a billable hour quota or target of roughly 1700-1800 hours, which is enough work for most people. In addition, you have another full time job that you can’t avoid: bringing in business. And of course you can’t forget about your marriage and the kids.

To manage my time, I use Steven Covey’s Time Management Matrix to split my daily activities into four quadrants: (1) Urgent/Important, (2) Not Urgent/Important, (3) Urgent/Not Important, and (4) Not Urgent/Not Important. I try to avoid or delegate activities in quadrants (3) and (4). I place most of my business development activities in quadrant (2) and make sure to devote some time to them each day or each week.

SUGARCREST: Most lawyers look to existing clients as the best source of new business. How does the fact that there is often no client left after your representation affect this strategy?

Wickouski: That’s a very good question. Those of us who practice bankruptcy law or litigate for a living talk about how envious we are of banking lawyers. For them, one or two institutional clients can lead to a steady stream of work for years regardless of whether or not they engage in additional marketing activity. As a bankruptcy lawyer, you’re always hustling for your next case. There’s no peace. The repeat business, if you want to call it that, comes from the people with whom we’ve worked—but usually only after they’ve moved on to other organizations. The key is to stay visible through networking, writing and speaking. And you have to do a good job every single day on every single project because nothing is more important than your reputation. A bad word about you multiplies itself ten times over and can be devastating.

SUGARCREST: Do you engage in reputation building activities such as writing and speaking?

Wickouski: Yes. I think speaking and writing articles are effective ways to keep your name out there. These activities keep you visible and validate your experience for clients that are considering hiring you. I can tell you, however, that I never got any business from giving speeches or writing articles until I wrote a book on bankruptcy fraud. This was very surprising to me because my reasons for writing the book stemmed less from using it as a business development tool and more from my genuine interest in the topic.

However, because the book focused on a very specific and narrowly defined area in which few bankruptcy lawyers had experience, I was able to establish myself as the sole source of this expertise. Soon I began receiving calls from all over the country from people wondering if I could help them in this area as a consultant, expert witness or co-counsel. It was astounding.

A couple of years ago I was retained by the largest physician’s practice group in New York to handle their bankruptcy. After they hired me, one of the doctors on the management committee told me that they were impressed and thought of me as a "substantial lawyer" because I had written a book. So, in addition to the subject matter, I think clients appreciate the mere fact that you endured the process of writing the book and getting it published. It shows a measure of expertise and commitment that not every lawyer has.

What I’ve learned from this is that speaking and writing articles is an effective way to keep your name out there. But, to maximize the results of these activities, try to focus on novel and/or narrowly defined issues that are of interest to you and your clients. If you find the right topic, write a book about it.

SUGARCREST: Many lawyers are uncomfortable moving prospective clients through the business development process. How do you do it?

Wickouski: I think you to break it into steps and treat it as a dialogue during which you take a very helpful mindset. One of my mentors, Roger Frankel, usually initiates the conversation by asking, "who does your legal work?" I’m usually more comfortable asking people who does their bankruptcy work because that elicits any one of the following responses:

• "We are currently working with another firm"
• "We don’t actually have anybody right now but we don’t have any bad credits"
• "You know there is something that just crossed my desk, we have an account that filed bankruptcy" or
• "We have an account that looks bad that we think might file bankruptcy and we really would like to sort it out, but we don’t want to spend the money"

Then, become an active listener and learn to spot and respond to different personality styles. Some attorneys might appear brusque but still be interested while others might be politely trying to tell you they’re not interested. Also, you have to listen to exactly what they’re saying. For example, are they saying, "Smith and Jones does our legal work but we’re not really happy with them?" Or, "Smith and Jones does our legal work and they’ve sent us a number of transactions so we’re sticking with them." Or "Smith and Jones does our legal work but they don’t really do bankruptcy and we wish we could find somebody to handle that."

Depending on the response, there are a number of approaches I can take. For example, I might say, "You know I will always do a one hour consultation without charge. If you want to come over some time with the files and maybe a couple of your account managers, we can just sit down and talk. I can give you an assessment, map out your options and then if you like what you hear you can decide how you’d like to proceed." This makes it very easy for people.

Under some circumstances, I might even go further, "You know if your people are seeing bankruptcy issues day in and day out and have questions, I’d be happy to come over and do a presentation. Why don’t you give me a list of topics and questions that people would like to hear addressed and a few dates when your people can get together? I’ll come over and do a lunch presentation or whatever works for you."

Both of these approaches are simple and effective. Once people have told you their legal problems you both become engaged in the project and they’re less likely to want to reinvent the wheel by going to someone else. Also, they’ve had a chance to check you out and hear if what you’re telling them makes any sense. If they feel comfortable, it’s easy for them to hire you at that point as opposed to searching the yellow pages or seeking a referral.

SUGARCREST: One of the complaints I’ve heard from women outside lawyers/partners—is that women corporate counsel are more reluctant to hire them than are their male counterparts. Do find that women are more or less likely to hire you than are men?

Wickouski: I haven’t found that. I think it cuts the other way. All things being equal, I think most of the women lawyers I know would hire a woman. And I don’t think it’s for political reasons. It has more to do with the fact that senior women professionals know and respect how much competence and staying power it takes for a woman to have 15-20+ years of experience and to be in a prominent position in her firm. I feel this way about my doctor—if she’s in her 40’s or 50’s and she’s a doctor then she must be good because she stuck around. Getting into school and persevering throughout one’s career are factors that add immediate credibility.

I’ve even had men in their 50’s or 60’s say to me, "At your age, if you’re a woman partner in a law firm, you must be good, because you must have had to really tough it out." It’s not that men at this level aren’t similarly credentialed—it’s simply that it was harder for most women and I think many decision-makers appreciate this and recognize the very high quality among older women partners.